Background:
I’m running the Pathfinder 2e Abomination Vaults adventure for a group of 5 players, though I’ve set it in my own homebrew setting and have not shied away from deviating from the published adventure. I’ll try not to, but I may let slip some minor AV spoilers
The players have just reached the end of book 1, and are about to go into book 2. At this point, about a month of in-game time has passed since the adventure began, and one week into the adventure there was a big supernatural event which made big news around the town that the adventure is set in. I like to play up the verisimilitude of the setting by having NPCs and the world react to the things that happen, as well as to the passage of time.
One thing I’ve come up with which I’m excited to see play out is that enough time has passed that word has spread around the local area about this megadungeon that has been discovered near the town. The players have been telling everyone who will listen about this heretofore undiscovered complex. In my mind, this would mean that other parties of adventurers would come to the town with the intent of doing the same thing the players are doing: looting dungeon, killing baddies, leveling up, getting rich and famous.
I’ve created a rival party of five adventurers of the same level as the players. This rival party is called “The Vanguard Edge” (or simply “The Edge”). I’ve spent a chunk of the last few days making notes on how to RP and employ The Edge. Here’s what I’ve got so far:
The party is likely to try to join forces with The Vanguard Edge. This should never be possible.
The Edge don’t follow the same rules as other NPCs. Think of them as a group of DM-controlled player characters. They know the rules of adventuring and they think like players.
The Edge are not villains. They are fundamentally “good guys”, but their goal is to eat the party’s lunch. They want to go into the Abomination Vaults and find all the cool loot first
In general, the Edge fulfill the negative stereotypes that most people have of adventurers. They are demanding, dismissive, and arrogant. They flaunt their wealth and brag about their exploits, they get bored when they go too long without fighting something. They sometimes speak in slightly more metagame terms, such as talking about their hopes to “level up” and “gain experience”.
If the party ever shares useful information with The Edge, they will look at it with some skepticism. The members of the Edge would never dream of sharing Intel with other adventurers.
The Edge will occasionally have reached certain places first. This should be used sparingly, and only when it is a real gut punch for the party. It should be easy to tell where they have been, because they are completely unsubtle in their approach to adventuring.
Sometimes the implication of treasure can be added to the adventure, but with the added implication that the Edge got to it first. Maybe Abomination Vaults doesn’t explicitly mention treasure in some room, but there was some in there, and the Edge already took it.
If an encounter is about to turn into a TPK, the Edge can show up to save the PCs. But they will never let them live it down.
Those are the notes I’ve made so far on how to use this new element of my campaign. I’m curious if anyone out there has any thoughts, either in things I’ve noted or things I’ve missed. I’d love folks to give their feedback
Thanks in advance!
Pointy Hat had a great video on this subject!
Nice! I watched Zipperon Disney’s video on the topic but I hadn’t seen this one. And I usually like Pointy Hat!
Thanks!
Ooh, I will have to check that out for my own game, thanks!
For flavor, you might include some NPCs mourning relatives who joined other failed adventuring parties. And if the module includes hireable NPCs, some of those might be survivors from other hastily assembled parties as well - the players’ party might be more attractive as a more capable party than their former squad. Or some NPCs might be shell-shocked survivors of other parties instead!
Mostly, this would let The Edge look like the best of the opposition, rather than the only other game in town!
It’s a nice idea, human are way more frightening than monsters. They’re smart have their own agenda, and will use violence to “defend themselves”
I’ve run a two rivalling PC party table, pretty fun, but more workload for the GM and less game for each player party.
The nice thing is since they are people, not monsters, and not villains, the party won’t try to kill them. They aren’t quite murderhobo-y enough to go full violence against a group that aren’t aligned as villains. That feeling of being constrained excites me. How will these players deal with a problem that they can’t just combat their way out of?
How will these players deal with a problem that they can’t just combat their way out of?
Lol that would be a funny resolution, but my players have been struggling with finances because of how much stuff you can buy in Pathfinder. And the one character creation rule I broke for The Edge was that I gave each member a flat 150 gold in addition to all of the weapons, armour, and gear that I’m giving them. Essentially I want them to taunt the party with how much more financially successful they are. They are all going to by default have the best possible (level-appropriate) loadout for their build.
I was being silly but now I’m wondering if that might not be a good issue for your players to deal with. Like they show up at a dungeon, and while waiting outside they’re approached by The Edge who take the opportunity to shit on them, their gear, their talent etc. Basically saying you were here first so you got first dibs, but you’ll probably die so we’ll be generous and give you 50g to go home and buy some better gear.
Sense motive could reveal that they expect the place to be stacked and don’t want the competition. Also gives them an excuse to swoop to the rescue if needed. I imagine they’d expect a hefty fee for the service though.
Or maybe they’ll say fuck it and take the 50g and leave lol.
Lmao, I actually love the idea of flipping that meme. The Edge is Ricky and the party is Lahey.
When I wrote in my notes that the Edge don’t follow the rules of other NPCs and that they “think like players”, this is exactly the sort of thing I meant. Taking the thing that the players would absolutely attempt if the roles were reversed and throwing it back at them.
If you want an idea for what sort of characters to run, why not add a chance to introduce foils to your current party?
That’s definitely part of the idea right now. Some of the PCs don’t have a super strong personality for their character, so it’s harder to create a strong foil.
For example, one of my players is very much a crunch guy. He’s playing a Human Fire Kineticist who was raised by Dwarves. He loves minmaxing and combat tactics, but will RP in the service of finding the next combat encounter. It’s hard to come up with a foil for someone like that. In theory his character has a real Superman complex, and also loves the applause and attention from being heroic, but the player RPs so rarely that these moments are few and far between. (Not complaining by the way; I love this player and am happy to have him at my table, he’s just sometimes hard to write stories around)
What I came up with for a foil to him is Olaf Ferric, a Dwarf metal Kineticist who is a hardened mercenary. The Edge hired Ferric purely to round out the numbers. He is just there to be muscle, and he doesn’t talk much. He is fully encased in metal armour, so you barely even see him. When he does talk, I’m planning on cupping my hand over my mouth to create a reverb effect on the VC.
You could always make the rumors about the edge play up the attributes that the player like about themselves. If the player likes the admiration for being heroic, make up rumors about the edge being super heroic and everyone loves them. You can make the reality as light or dark as you want, but if you go dark make sure the PCs are the only witnesses to their real selves.
when the idea isn’t good, you could always play into a common stereotype, like “horny bard” or “edgy rogue”, I guess.
I’m thinking something similar, but more along the lines of murderhobos. But like most PCs, murderhobos with enough of a conscience to not murder NPCs who aren’t actually hurting anyone.
Alexandrian had some interesting thoughts about what to avoid when running rival party in his Call of the Netherdeep -review (includes spoilers about the adventure): https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/48216/roleplaying-games/review-call-of-the-netherdeep
I think MCDM had cool ideas about this in one of their books, including some sample ready made parties. Of course you’d have to convert them from 5e to PF2, but still it might not be a bad source of inspiration. It must have been either Flee, Mortals or Where Evil Lives.
I actually have Flee, Mortals! and just checked it. I don’t think it has anything like that. It has rules for minions and retainers. It must be the other book you’re thinking of.
Oh ya, makes sense actually. Must be the other one.
