This is an inclusive community for all things women. Whether you’re here for make up tips, feminism or just friendly chit chat, we’ve got you covered.
I feel like men can do all of those things, so I don’t see why we are excluding them. Just because it’s a women-centric community doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed. I think we should exclude people who are bigoted instead, or even people who just don’t “get” women’s issues.
Aside: I’m personally irritated that make-up is what’s considered a woman-centric topic. That’s kind of reductive – not everyone is femme.
The rest of Lemmy is free for men to participate in, this is the only community where men are not permitted to post. This helps create a safe space for women to chat without the direct influence and reactions of men.
I also personally agree with you and think men can have valuable contributions, including on women’s topics. But I also respect the desire for a women’s only space as well, especially in a context of a sexist society where women struggle to gain equal rights under the law and in society generally - and in a male-dominated social space like Lemmy.
I think we should exclude people who are bigoted instead, or even people who just don’t “get” women’s issues.
These are also the rules, bigots are not welcome here.
Aside: I’m personally irritated that make-up is what’s considered a woman-centric topic. That’s kind of reductive – not everyone is femme.
I get that, but the reality is that lots of women enjoy makeup (including me!) even if some don’t.
Listing make-up and hair as examples of what women might be interested in is not meant to be reductive or essentialising, even if it is based on generalizations and what is perceived as a common interest among women.
We’re not saying women must be interested in makeup to be women, or the only way to be women is to be high-femme. To the contrary, the founder of this community who wrote that example recently posted a meme critical of makeup as an industry that exploits women’s insecurities.
Thank you for your post!! ❤️
Thanks for understanding. Fair enough, it makes sense. But I guess I just don’t like to see any online space exist where people are excluded just based on their demographic instead of their ability to contribute.
That’s a good instinct, and I share that. However, there are clearly times when allowing an oppressed minority to have their own safe spaces can make sense. Think of the reverse: forced integration of an oppressed group is not a good idea either, disallowing them to have their own spaces or to meet is itself a form of oppression.
While I agree it can feel discriminatory and icky, this particular form of exclusion is meant to be protective of women, and I don’t see our existence as a women’s-only space as a meaningful threat or injustice to the men of Lemmy.
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I guess I don’t see how excluding feminist men is protective of women. Let me be real, I have had a lot of bad interaction with men in the real world and online, but I have as best as I can resisted the urge to draw a line and say men as a whole are the problem. I feel bad for some really sweet men who feel ashamed of their gender, and I this kind of philosophy contributes to that shame. (Maybe I’m too much of an individualist.)
Anyway, this doesn’t bother me enough to block the community as someone else suggested. I do appreciate a space to talk about women’s issues. But if in the future there is a vote as to whether to allow feminists of any gender to participate, I would vote yes.
We don’t know which men are feminist or not, and even feminist men don’t always behave in ways that are egalitarian. By having a safe space women can avoid the common interactions they have with men which are often problematic and threatening, or even just annoying.
The suggestion that a single Lemmy community be a safe space for women is not a suggestion that everything should be segregated or that society should be organized this way. This is no different than providing on Lemmy a space like a girl’s night, baby shower, other similar social situations where men are not involved.
I probably wouldn’t vote to eliminate this community’s women’s only rule (because I don’t want to take that away from other women who value this space, even if I have a different perspective), but I happen to agree with you that being a man isn’t the issue and excluding men isn’t the best practice.
Perhaps you could lead the charge on a developing an inclusive sister community to this one that is inclusive of men?
We don’t know which men are feminist or not
But we also don’t know which users are men or women without them identifying themselves. In contrast, we can actually see whether someone is a feminist based on their actions and comments. (For what it’s worth, I invite men to my girl’s nights. It’s never been a problem, because I only invite friends to my parties. If I wouldn’t be okay with him at my girl’s nights, I wouldn’t want him at any event.)
and even feminist men don’t always behave in ways that are egalitarian.
As you said, there’s already rules against that.
sister community
There exist inclusive sister communities to this already. Creating another community would not reduce the amount of exclusivity, and it’s the exclusivity which bothers me, not this community. I actually like this community already from what I have seen.
But we also don’t know which users are men or women without them identifying themselves. In contrast, we can actually see whether someone is a feminist based on their actions and comments.
Sure, but a man can claim to be feminist and still challenge and talk over women’s perspectives, creating a chilling effect for the women even without violating a boundary on being feminist. Feminist behavior is harder to police than being men. Either way, it’s not my rule and I didn’t make it. Like you, I think separatism is generally a bad idea and I prefer inclusive communities.
But I also understand that marginalized communities are not always best served by being forced to include people that create a chilling effect, so I am not going to tear down this community’s exclusionary rule, esp. as you say since there are already other inclusive communities.
To my perspective, advocating for the right of men to access the only womens space in a male-dominated social site is not in reality as progressive as it might sound in theory.
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Yeah, the chilling-effect argument is most compelling to me in favour of the rule. From a utilitarian perspective, I actually do think the no-men rule is effective. Deontologically though, it just seems immoral – I can’t help but picture the one guy who exists who’d be a good fit here and is unjustly not allowed to participate. Perhaps we can tag them as “honorary woman” or something lol.
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I won’t deny I’m privileged. But I don’t really wish to increase the number of spaces that are exclusive either.
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Honestly I think a majority of the men commenting don’t even notice the community they’re posting in, let alone read the rules. It happens a lot when a post reaches /c/all and a flood of outside users suddenly are interacting with the post.
Luckily this means a lot of them are not too impolite about it (even if some of them get defensive).
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Well, your response is identical to, for instance, the response given in terf communities I used to peruse. (Relax – I’m a better person now.) The reason I am asking is that I think exclusivity is a bad thing, rather than the absence of a good thing – i.e., the world would be better with fewer exclusive places.
I’d counter with this – why don’t you want men in the community? And does the answer you give to that apply to every man, or just a subset? I understand, of course, that the easiest way to exclude that subset is to exclude all men, and I wouldn’t want to ask the mod team to do more work for free.
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If she asks in a women-only room, we can all discern with context that it’s rhetorical to help make her point.
No, they didn’t ask you at all…
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Hi there, I also have nothing to do with makeup or following beauty standard or fashion … however I have friends who do, and sometimes they like to talk about it. So … I just zone out and let them get on with it, it’s not hurting me.
Men dominate 99.9999% of online spaces, and even the most supportive of ally men will sometimes talk over women or assume their opinion is more important, so I think that maintaining this as a space just for women is a good thing.
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Yup, agreed on all fronts :-)
what does it mean to talk over someone on lemmy? It’s tree-based discussion, so I can’t really visualize that being possible.
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yes, this is a great example! And men IRL who talk over women can have a chilling effect that the man responding to everyone can create - there is a confrontational nature to the interaction that gives it a “talking over” feeling, it’s basically just aggression and not reading the social situation that then leads to women not feeling like participating as much or being vulnerable about how they feel (esp. if they think they will be challenged or criticized for it).
Sometimes it’s just nice to have a break from that confrontational style of interaction and to feel like people are going to be receptive and kind to you. (I would like to think plenty of men feel this way in male spaces, too, btw!)
You’ve very thoroughly explained exactly what I was thinking of! Thank you :-)
(Sorry for the late response.)
I actually don’t agree that this is “talking over.” For one thing, this is a tree-structure forum, so on any give root-leaf path, the man is only 50% of the messages (and this is more relevant IMO). For another, I don’t even see what this man is doing wrong. He is politely responding to every response in turn. But ultimately, I just don’t think this really counts as “talking over” – I experience being “talked over” in real life a lot, and it feels like being unable to get a word in. It does not feel like “being able to say as much as I want to, and then get a direct reply,” which is the experience all the women you have described are having.
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I think I understand the problem you are pointing out. You’re saying that the forum shifts to have too many comments by men. But that’s not the same thing as being talked over.
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You’ve misunderstood me entirely. This is not merely an argument of semantics. Being talked over is a really bad thing, and yeah, I obviously don’t want that to be a thing that happens more. In contrast, increasing the proportion of men is essentially by definition the thing that I’m asking about in this thread – why aren’t men permitted. This means you’re begging the question: “permitting men would be bad because it would increase the amount of posts by men.” You’re just asserting that’s bad for some reason. I’m really not being pedantic here.
Anyway, if you’re trying to educate me about basic etiquette, you obviously think I’m arguing in bad faith. So let’s just call it off here.
Fair enough. Anyway, I am not advocating that well-intentioned men be permitted into the community – just ones that fit in.
That comes with the logistical challenges of …
a) how do you find out which ones will fit in?
b) who defines what “fitting in” means?
c) would the men who are feminist and “fit in” not feel weirded out by being allowed into somewhere that’s meant to be for women to talk amongst themselves? I mean, I would feel like I was invading something private if I were invited into a support group for men.
I presume that any woman who acts like a disrespectful man would be kicked, so that would be the same predicate for (a) and (b).
As for (c), how should I know. Maybe they would feel kinship for some reason, like they’re in touch with their feminine side. Or perhaps they are facing an issue most commonly experienced by women. IDK, I’m not a man. Is this a support group?
Rule 2 is don’t be a dick, so being disrespectful might get someone kicked regardless of their gender. Someone’s gender is not just from being disrespectful, we often just ask the person.
Any place where we (assuming adult women) talk amongst ourselves is a support group sometimes
follow up question, why does it matter what you call yourself on the internet?
on the internet, nobody knows you’re a cat.
What do you mean?
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I am not a man, and I did not say that I was. You must have misread. I said I am not femme – i.e. I’m not girly.
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It’s fine. I am not insulted that you thought I was a man; I am not insecure about my gender. I’m used to people assuming I’m a man online, and I don’t mind it. I prefer to avoid the harassment I get when I actively identify myself as a woman, which is why I don’t put pronouns in my username.
Having a space where you aren’t harassed by men is precisely the reason for the rule to exclude men … You shouldn’t have to hide who you are to avoid harassment, you should be able to feel safe to be yourself.
Oh absolutely. It bothers me – that’s why I wanted to mention this here.
Thank you for your comment, but this is a space for women only. Hope you understand. ❤️
I have a great example, there is a discord server called Spectrum. Its exclusively for Queer ppl, no straight allies. Theres nothing wrong with allies but Queer people need spaces where they arent talked over or judged. We also need spaces for women and minority groups in a similar manner.
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Hi and welcome to WomensStuff! Really glad to hear your views on how we do things. Dandelion already said it all better than I would have done so I don’t have anything to add, just agreeing with her. 😊
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Thank you for your comment, but this is a space for women only to comment and post.
I don’t see evidence to suggest superkret isn’t a woman, and I don’t think this comment broke any rules nor made me feel unwelcome. It was just a misunderstanding.
Thanks Jsomae, I agree with Dandelions actions here. Mod decision is final, but thanks for your feedback. 😊
For the sake of transparency, can you explain the decision?
I’m feeling like I walked in, said, “hello,” and got somebody banned.
You absolutely didn’t get anyone banned, nothing you did was responsible for them being a man and violating the rules by commenting.
While I hear your concern about transparency (and I am sympathetic - I can imagine feeling the same way in your situation), I should point out that transparency is not owed in this context, nor is this the appropriate place or context for litigating my moderation decisions.
The decision I made was based on what I considered sufficient evidence that superkret is not a woman, and my judgement was seconded by @CheeseToastie@lazysoci.al.
While I’m always open to being wrong (I am human after all, I make mistakes!), and I hope you would let me know if you found compelling evidence that I made a mistake, I stand by my decision based on the evidence I have (even if it is not appropriate to disclose and litigate that evidence and my reasoning with you here in public).
Thanks Dandelion really appreciate your work here ❤️
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I totally agree with the decision it’s what I’d have done too. Jsomae we appreciate your comments but won’t discuss it further 😊 @dandelion@blahaj.com thanks so much for your work in this thread!
I see a lot of women on lemmy. Most people with pronouns in their usernames have she/her.
Anyway, I think any feminist should be allowed to participate. Doesn’t bother me enough to block the whole community.
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Thank you for your comment, but this is a community for women only.
Hmm, that community probably could be linked from the sidebar.
Hey, I don’t identify as a woman. Should I block this community?
Go right ahead, if that suits you. I believe you’re also welcome to read and upvote/downvote.
Technically, I think you’re not allowed to ask that question though.
As @jsomae@lemmy.ml clarified, you are welcome to read, we just ask non-women to not post or comment.
We don’t expect anyone to feel they have to block the community.
